Re:Creators Episode 21 Discussion

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Jan 2017

192

Raikiri29 said:
Well, like I tought last week : "I don't want Altair loose her will of destroy the world thanks to Setsuna"

Beautiful episode but I'm a little disappointed because it was the easy route where they stop Altair with a false Setsuna.

In my memory, Souta knows Setsuna for some months only right ? So How could he create a character who looks like her ? We all know the human behavior/psyche is really complexe

Her description was left blank other than the fact that she is a girl who created Altair. "The universe filled in the blanks"(I lack a better description to what happened) like the details the authors don't think up about their creations, like how Marine was surprised by Selesia's costume's fabric and how it was put together in episode 3, to give you an example.

Sep 10, 2017 10:51 AM

#159

Shingster

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Jun 2015

4521

Bringing back Setsuna who was Altair's creator before her passing sure was a risky move.
Its interesting seeing Altair panic when she see's Setsuna though i guess she is her creator.
Its only right that the character of Setsuna was created by Souta since he has the best memories of her. But to think that he also recreated an entire world too though That is indicative of his skills that he has developed so far. This move to put Altair into a corner though while certainly dirty is well within the bounds of whats allowed in stories though. Bringing back Setsuna through creating her as a creation though was nice as it allowed her to interact with Altair that she wasn't able to do when she was alive. Its interesting seeing this side of Altair though. If setsuna was still alive then Altair would never have gone along her current route in the first place. In a way i guess both Setsuna and Altair are totally lost on their feelings here. Setsuna's words towards Altair were pretty good and helped convey her true emotions and feelings towards not just Altair but for her own feelings as well.
Though this is the first time that both have met each other it can be seen that Altair respects her creator a lot. The fact that Setsuna is honest towards her serves to enhance this. Its nice seeing this side of Altairs and seeing her interact with Setuna like they were friends though. While its true that Altair was orginally created by Setsuna Altair's various iterations were created by people that believed in her and agreed with her. Thus it can be said that she is no longer alone anymore. Because Setauna as a character didn't exist in this world it truly is a miracle that she was able to be here at all. But despite that the impact that she had was immense.

Its nice that the audience loved the character of Setsuna though. Altair's actions in trying to rescue Setsuna from her fate though was pretty surprising. But its nice that she at least has such emotions though as well. The emotions that Souta felt as Setsuna adressed him though. I just can't imagine how sad he felt at seeing Setsuna as a creation and not as a real person. This episode though featuring no combat at all was beautiful because it showed Altair's other side thanks to the reintroduction of Setsuna and the words that she for Altair. Souta was also able to speak the words that he held for so long in his heart to her and finally let his true feelings out. Those words were so heartfelt but reflected how much Souta has come with everyone's help and by admitting his guilt as well. Im sure Setsuna would be proud. The music in the end though was really beautiful.
To think that Souta's first creation will be Setsuna though. And thats the end of that battle then. Truly it was amazing that in the end it was not might of arms that won the battle but diplomacy and logic. Im curious to see how this will end though. That was one heck of a reunion for Setsuna and Altair though.

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Sep 10, 2017 11:06 AM

#160

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Jul 2014

657

Cour_Victor said:

Pipe said:
About Magane's power It isn't my personal explanation, it is the writers and staff way. Again that explanation is from TROYCA The persons gave more acceptance to Altair so Meteora was able to Re:Create Setsuna. Magane just inverted the acceptance and helped Meteora to achieve that goal via acceptance. Magane didn't helped to call a dead person or a zombie. Setsuna is a creation based on acceptance. So that's why several persons are saying that isn't the real Setsuna, is Souta's creation (now it is up to you, is thereal Setsuna?). For me is a weird explanation that creates more narrative holes, but if troyca's team explains in that way there isn't anything more to say.

Also you can't compare this world with that world because for our world, Altair is a main character for Souta's world she isn't a known character that's why the other creators didn't have any idea of who was Altair in the first episodes.

Just to let you know, I don't know hot it works with your assumptions but Setsuna's description was left blank other than the fact that "she is a girl who created Altair" before her creation according to Hiroe's last interview.

Which accordingly means that Souta's memories of how Setsuna behaved filled in the blanks and extrapolated logically, just like how, in episode 3, we get comments about the details of Selesia's garment even though Marine didn't put in that much detail.

Sep 10, 2017 12:33 PM

#161

Farabeuf

The Shrike

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11762

HeroVladimir93 said:
This episode effectively broke the series for me. I'm glad Setsuna and Sota got some needed reconciliation and the world was saved at the final moment, but I'm still pissed at how the show let Altair got away with all the crap she has pulled. Even if she got reunited with her creator, that doesn't change the fact that she had to walk over many good people to make it happen. We'll never have justice for Mamika, Aliceteria, Selesia and Charon, the people who saw beauty in the world and fought tooth and nail to save it. Everything is about Altair and because of her sob story, the universe agreed with that narcissism. I might be underestimating the bond between Setsuna and Altair but I can't help but feel cheated that Altair was vindicated in the end. Her moral selfishness wasn't punished, it was rewarded. And with only one episode left, I don't know how this will work out.

Wholeheartedly agree. A bullshit sob story background does not justify the murder, destruction and evil she unleashed on the world. Even when saving her creator like she did.

I've been saying this from the beginning of the show. The concept and ideas behind are big and brilliant, but the never-ending expository dialogue kills off some of it. It is no, but I mean in no way the masterpiece that many proclaim it to be. It consistently underestimates its audience and spoon-feeds everything to them.

"Perhaps there is a universal, absolute truth. Perhaps it justifies every question. But that's beyond the reach of these small hands." Mamoru Oshii

There is a cult of ignorance (...) nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that “my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.” Isaac Asimov

Sep 10, 2017 1:43 PM

#162

LobsterRyoma

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Sep 2009

415

HeroVladimir93 said:
This episode effectively broke the series for me. I'm glad Setsuna and Sota got some needed reconciliation and the world was saved at the final moment, but I'm still pissed at how the show let Altair got away with all the crap she has pulled. Even if she got reunited with her creator, that doesn't change the fact that she had to walk over many good people to make it happen. We'll never have justice for Mamika, Aliceteria, Selesia and Charon, the people who saw beauty in the world and fought tooth and nail to save it. Everything is about Altair and because of her sob story, the universe agreed with that narcissism. I might be underestimating the bond between Setsuna and Altair but I can't help but feel cheated that Altair was vindicated in the end. Her moral selfishness wasn't punished, it was rewarded. And with only one episode left, I don't know how this will work out.

Another thing that irked me was how the narrative in the latter half of the battle royale kept implying that "maybe Altair is the hero". No. In no narrative sense is she the hero of the story. There is nothing "heroic" about an omnicidal, overpowered character who wants to destroy the world, and has slain, directly or indirectly, at least 5 main characters in cold blood and with absolutely no struggle whatsoever. And even if they were the protagonist, karma or something tends to kick their teeth in a little later anyways.

Just because she's a fan favorite it doesn't frikkin' mean she's the hero. Characters like Dio and Kira from Jojo, and even Sephiroth from FF7 are fan favorites. But no regular fan is under the illusion that these people are the heroes of the story. Part of the enjoyment are these villains getting their comeuppance after causing so much suffering.

LobsterRyomaSep 10, 2017 1:46 PM

Sep 10, 2017 2:06 PM

#163

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Jan 2017

192

LobsterRyoma said:
Just because she's a fan favorite it doesn't frikkin' mean she's the hero. Characters like Dio and Kira from Jojo, and even Sephiroth from FF7 are fan favorites. But no regular fan is under the illusion that these people are the heroes of the story. Part of the enjoyment are these villains getting their comeuppance after causing so much suffering.

Main character =/= Hero. When Hikayu says the audience selected you as the main character, that means the audience wants to see her plans unfold and go to it's final phase, or her to find an answer for a redemption, because they find her interesting. They want the story of her, what made her who she was and why she was doing what she did. She spells out her position in the story right in the middle of the episode. They don't want her to die with questions unanswered, they don't want to give her an uncharismatic departure. That's why she won against the stronger version of her, the only answer team government had cooked up after she obliterated the original team's position like a real villain who'd be easy to hate and wanted to be seen gone.

Edit: I rewatched the scene and realized I made a mistake. She does call her the hero, for overcoming her enemies and making it to the end. Interesting. Anyway I'll be keeping the paragraph as it was.

Cour_VictorSep 10, 2017 2:29 PM

Sep 10, 2017 2:43 PM

#164

VxeR_

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How to ruin a good series in 20 minutes

Sep 10, 2017 5:10 PM

#165

uncle_reality

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Aug 2014

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VxeR_ said:
How to ruin a good series in 20 minutes

Facts I Feel like shit

Sep 10, 2017 5:14 PM

#166

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Jul 2014

657

LobsterRyoma said:

HeroVladimir93 said:
This episode effectively broke the series for me. I'm glad Setsuna and Sota got some needed reconciliation and the world was saved at the final moment, but I'm still pissed at how the show let Altair got away with all the crap she has pulled. Even if she got reunited with her creator, that doesn't change the fact that she had to walk over many good people to make it happen. We'll never have justice for Mamika, Aliceteria, Selesia and Charon, the people who saw beauty in the world and fought tooth and nail to save it. Everything is about Altair and because of her sob story, the universe agreed with that narcissism. I might be underestimating the bond between Setsuna and Altair but I can't help but feel cheated that Altair was vindicated in the end. Her moral selfishness wasn't punished, it was rewarded. And with only one episode left, I don't know how this will work out.

Another thing that irked me was how the narrative in the latter half of the battle royale kept implying that "maybe Altair is the hero". No. In no narrative sense is she the hero of the story. There is nothing "heroic" about an omnicidal, overpowered character who wants to destroy the world, and has slain, directly or indirectly, at least 5 main characters in cold blood and with absolutely no struggle whatsoever. And even if they were the protagonist, karma or something tends to kick their teeth in a little later anyways.

Just because she's a fan favorite it doesn't frikkin' mean she's the hero. Characters like Dio and Kira from Jojo, and even Sephiroth from FF7 are fan favorites. But no regular fan is under the illusion that these people are the heroes of the story. Part of the enjoyment are these villains getting their comeuppance after causing so much suffering.

Part of the underlying problem is that Altair is never given enough screentime to show her as sympathetic. It's suggested lightly in episode 15, but that's all. In fact, episode 15 is the first time we see Altair expressing affection for anything other than the memories of Setsuna that she carries within her.

At all other times, she's shown to be what amounts to the perfect villain: viciously intelligent and outwardly charming, a quasi-sociopath who lies to get what she wants and expertly manipulates both friend and foe towards her ideal outcome.

In the times her mask slips, we, the audience, are presented with a bitter and narcissistic young woman who desperately seeks an audience to assuage the hatred, sorrow, and pain which birthed her. She glories in the attention and power she receives, and grows increasingly sadistic, petty, and vengeful as her strength increases.

In every way, she is a reflection of the ugliness in Setsuna's heart that birthed and drives her. Worse yet, at some point she actively began disobeying Setsuna; episode 3 has her speaking to whatever is left of the original Setsuna, saying:

"...Setsuna, I met Souta again. To think that our destinies would intertwine once more. Yes, it's unfortunate. But remember: he's part of the world that hurt and rejected you. Until the end of this world, I will always be your ally."

None of this lines up with who we are presented in episode 21, after fully four episodes of brutal combat. In that time Altair has directly or indirectly killed three characters and gloried in their deaths. Another two sit at death's door, their fate unclear. From this, we show Altair breaking down into distraught wreck as she first rages, then tries to kill a recreation of her own creator, and then finally pours her black little heart out. All she wanted was justice, she claims, and for this Setsuna--now the genuine article thanks to reuniting with the memories carried by Altair--absolves her of guilt.

A teachable moment where Setsuna speaks about what it means to create is then buried when Altair literally gets to hit the ball of of the park having a completely unexpected revelation that she, too, can create; she then proceeds to become possibly the most powerful character in all the multiverses by creating not one but potentially an infinite series of worlds for her and her creator and then physically escaping into them.

By doing so she removes herself from the consequences of her own actions, and even gets accepted for them. Long story short, Altair is not shown to grow until the end of the series, by which time it is far, far too late. Were this but a pause in a longer saga reaching out to 32 episodes, wrapping up with the fate of creations and Magane's own plans (which as of yet have not been developed), this would be a logical and cathartic reunion, placing Altair into storage until her strength would be needed to counter Magane's own plans for world domination as expressed by her "great miracle emperor plan." This would give the audience a chance to see Altair grow into a character and have to earn trust with the other creations' for whose suffering she is responsible.

Instead we get this ending which, while emotionally satisfying for many, is about as logical story-wise as suddenly having a 3P orgy between Altair, Setsuna, and Souta; it nullifies the canonical and emotional value of the deaths of characters in previous episodes and--most importantly--wrecks the value of Altair as a character by making all previous effort seem pointless. This ending could easily be construed as her ultimate goal in the first place given that she basically got exactly what she wanted in spite of the protagonists' best efforts. A villain-sue, in short.

Sep 10, 2017 7:45 PM

#167

revyHOLiC

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299

uncle_reality said:

VxeR_ said:
How to ruin a good series in 20 minutes

Facts I Feel like shit

theres no other way to take down character with god tier. if they killed her or make her lose..that was ridiculous.

Sep 10, 2017 8:58 PM

#168

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Jul 2014

657

alvinozthadr said:

uncle_reality said:

Facts I Feel like shit

theres no other way to take down character with god tier. if they killed her or make her lose..that was ridiculous.

While I agree, this is more of a composition and narrative issue. A distinct problem is that they didn't set up Altair as a character for this. There simply wasn't enough background for an ending where Altair basically gets to walk off into Yuri heaven with her creator, especially since we never got a good look at her relationship with her creator before this episode in the first place. This ending could have been set up better with a longer show, but essentially the problem is that Altair gets to run away from the world and her problems with it as opposed to having to accept the world and her relation to it.

Sep 10, 2017 9:41 PM

#169

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195

firemagnet said:

alvinozthadr said:

theres no other way to take down character with god tier. if they killed her or make her lose..that was ridiculous.

While I agree, this is more of a composition and narrative issue. A distinct problem is that they didn't set up Altair as a character for this. There simply wasn't enough background for an ending where Altair basically gets to walk off into Yuri heaven with her creator, especially since we never got a good look at her relationship with her creator before this episode in the first place. This ending could have been set up better with a longer show, but essentially the problem is that Altair gets to run away from the world and her problems with it as opposed to having to accept the world and her relation to it.

I agree the ending could have been set up better. Nonetheless, they solved it elegantly. It would be ridiculous if they somehow beaten Altair just like that, with Sirius for example or with power-up of a character like Selesia with Charon's help. What happened, seems convincing to me. Naive character have died, Selesia sacrificed herself to eliminate Charon. Altair is almighty so she created a new universe for her and Setsuna where they can create stories with new characters in them. Seems logical? At least to me. These are the consequences of what has happened before that and what was established. Not everything has to always be fair. Real people who died won't be resurrected but the creations will be for sure as Mamika's, Alicetaria's and Selesia's+Charon's creators are alive. Don't know what with creations that are still in our world, especially with Chikujouin who flew away on a plane.

Sep 10, 2017 9:56 PM

#170

Jonesy974

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Aug 2013

2278

Damn, 24 mins straight of Altair and Setsuna interacting basically means 24 straight minutes of feels.

In the end, Altair was able to use her limitless powers to keep Setsuna alive and create a new world and universe for just the two of them.

I wonder who's more broken, Altair, who has the limitless and infinite broken powers of the Holopsicon, or Magane who's power to "turn lies inside out", can literally fuck with all of causality.

I'm still not even 100% sure what Magane's power did there. Did it actually defy the rule of law and bring Setsuna "back from the dead"? Or did it allow Sota's wish of allowing her character to be added to come true despite their not being enough audience acceptance for it to even be possible? I guess in the grand scheme of things the end result is basically the same regardless of how the power worked.

Interested to see what they do with this final episode since it'll basically be an epilogue. I just really hope to see Magane somehow not get returned to her story and is able to troll one last time in the real world.

Sep 10, 2017 10:13 PM

#171

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Nov 2012

195

It was certainly (mostly) Magane's power combined with Meteora's, Souta's and Altair's Holopsicon that made saving Setsuna possible. Magane is imo 2nd strongest character in the series. She can easily deceive someone, I admit that she would probably have no problems in doing it to me, I would fall into her trap.

Sep 10, 2017 10:31 PM

#172

AivanK

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Jan 2013

4202

Finally, Altair met her creator. What a great moment.
At least they explained some of the things.
So what next?Happy ending?

"There is no such thing as an Anime elitist. You watch Anime, therefore, you are trash by society's standards."

Sep 11, 2017 12:16 AM

#173

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Jul 2014

657

Mozek said:

firemagnet said:

While I agree, this is more of a composition and narrative issue. A distinct problem is that they didn't set up Altair as a character for this. There simply wasn't enough background for an ending where Altair basically gets to walk off into Yuri heaven with her creator, especially since we never got a good look at her relationship with her creator before this episode in the first place. This ending could have been set up better with a longer show, but essentially the problem is that Altair gets to run away from the world and her problems with it as opposed to having to accept the world and her relation to it.

I agree the ending could have been set up better. Nonetheless, they solved it elegantly. It would be ridiculous if they somehow beaten Altair just like that, with Sirius for example or with power-up of a character like Selesia with Charon's help. What happened, seems convincing to me. Naive character have died, Selesia sacrificed herself to eliminate Charon. Altair is almighty so she created a new universe for her and Setsuna where they can create stories with new characters in them. Seems logical? At least to me. These are the consequences of what has happened before that and what was established. Not everything has to always be fair. Real people who died won't be resurrected but the creations will be for sure as Mamika's, Alicetaria's and Selesia's+Charon's creators are alive. Don't know what with creations that are still in our world, especially with Chikujouin who flew away on a plane.

I wouldn't expect them to beat Altair, but I had almost wished that Setsuna had still died. I feel like that would have put a cap on everything, and made Setsuna's words to Altair about acceptance a lasting lesson as opposed to something that feels like a throwaway moment; Altair doesn't grow as a character because of this. She basically gets told that she was right, accepted, and that everything she did was OK.

I'm watching the episode again via amazon to see if I missed something, but...

Sep 11, 2017 12:44 AM

#174

Red_Ranger_Wien

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Sep 2011

2711

God, that was bad. Dropping the show from a 7 to a 5. This is why you don't write OP characters without a way to beat them already planned.

Sep 11, 2017 1:24 AM

#175

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Jan 2017

192

Red_Ranger_Wien said:
God, that was bad. Dropping the show from a 7 to a 5. This is why you don't write OP characters without a way to beat them already planned.

"...leading to a fateful meeting between creators and those they created."
The story was written to have Setsuna meet Altair, not to have the creators fight a god tier villain.

Sep 11, 2017 1:26 AM

#176

VxeR_

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Oct 2013

378

firemagnet said:

Mozek said:

I agree the ending could have been set up better. Nonetheless, they solved it elegantly. It would be ridiculous if they somehow beaten Altair just like that, with Sirius for example or with power-up of a character like Selesia with Charon's help. What happened, seems convincing to me. Naive character have died, Selesia sacrificed herself to eliminate Charon. Altair is almighty so she created a new universe for her and Setsuna where they can create stories with new characters in them. Seems logical? At least to me. These are the consequences of what has happened before that and what was established. Not everything has to always be fair. Real people who died won't be resurrected but the creations will be for sure as Mamika's, Alicetaria's and Selesia's+Charon's creators are alive. Don't know what with creations that are still in our world, especially with Chikujouin who flew away on a plane.

I wouldn't expect them to beat Altair, but I had almost wished that Setsuna had still died. I feel like that would have put a cap on everything, and made Setsuna's words to Altair about acceptance a lasting lesson as opposed to something that feels like a throwaway moment; Altair doesn't grow as a character because of this. She basically gets told that she was right, accepted, and that everything she did was OK.

I'm watching the episode again via amazon to see if I missed something, but...

The problem is how Altair reacts. The moment she sees her, even though she knows she's a fake, somehow this uber-intelligent and cold hearted villain starts to act and talk like she's the main heroine in a romance show. You can't just change a character's personality like that.

The Altair we were shown would have laughed the moment she saw Setsuna, insulted the creators, and gotten pissed, real pissed and ended the world right there.

Would've been a nice change of pace having the villain win for once.

Sep 11, 2017 1:32 AM

#177

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Jan 2017

192

VxeR_ said:
The problem is how Altair reacts. The moment she sees her, even though she knows she's a fake, somehow this uber-intelligent and cold hearted villain starts to act and talk like she's the main heroine in a romance show. You can't just change a character's personality like that.

The Altair we were shown would have laughed the moment she saw Setsuna, insulted the creators, and gotten pissed, real pissed and ended the world right there.

Would've been a nice change of pace having the villain win for once.

It was in character. She spent 5 minutes trying to decide whether to keep her or not but it then it clicked between them. She explicitly exclaims that it's a horrible trick the creators put together, but she can't get herself to kill the only one she wanted to see for so long. If she was an incomplete or an inaccurate replication then she'd be ticked off.

Plus, she is unquestionably Setsuna, at least not the one alive. So she won by having her on her side.

Sep 11, 2017 1:43 AM

#178

VxeR_

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Oct 2013

378

Cour_Victor said:

VxeR_ said:
The problem is how Altair reacts. The moment she sees her, even though she knows she's a fake, somehow this uber-intelligent and cold hearted villain starts to act and talk like she's the main heroine in a romance show. You can't just change a character's personality like that.

The Altair we were shown would have laughed the moment she saw Setsuna, insulted the creators, and gotten pissed, real pissed and ended the world right there.

Would've been a nice change of pace having the villain win for once.

It was in character. She spent 5 minutes trying to decide whether to keep her or not but it then it clicked between them. She explicitly exclaims that it's a horrible trick the creators put together, but she can't get herself to kill the only one she wanted to see for so long. If she was an incomplete or an inaccurate replication then she'd be ticked off.

Plus, she is unquestionably Setsuna, at least not the one alive. So she won by having her on her side.

That's what I call an asspull.
For example, Altair got her knowledge from Setsuna. That means that she knew that Sota was the most important person for her and the sole reason she was created. So why did she try to kill him instantly the first time they met? Because he let her die? The Setsuna we saw this ep didn't seem to mind.

But with a fake created for the sole purpose of stopping her (and she knows it) she falls right into the trap and gets all moe. They just had to have someone dress like Setsuna, sweet talk Altair a bit and nobody would've died. That simple.

Sep 11, 2017 1:49 AM

#179

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Jan 2017

192

VxeR_ said:
That's what I call an asspull.
For example, Altair got her knowledge from Setsuna. That means that she knew that Sota was the most important person for her and the sole reason she was created. So why did she try to kill him instantly the first time they met? Because he let her die? The Setsuna we saw this ep didn't seem to mind.

But with a fake created for the sole purpose of stopping her (and she knows it) she falls right into the trap and gets all moe. They just had to have someone dress like Setsuna, sweet talk Altair a bit and nobody would've died. That simple.

Listen to her last message to Souta. She's never on bad terms with him and she doesn't blame him for what happened. Go back to episode 3, Altair recollects she has seen Souta, and that it would be a shame to kill him along the rest.

Setsuna was ahead of Altair, by first deconstructing her life meaning and then throwing herself into the train. She basically gave her a choice, I wasn't supposed to be here talking to you, now I have to go. Altair didn't care for anything else in the world so she understood her situation and chose happiness with the Setsuna she had instead of eternal demise for all things living.

Sep 11, 2017 2:37 AM

#180

Red_Ranger_Wien

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Sep 2011

2711

Cour_Victor said:

Red_Ranger_Wien said:
God, that was bad. Dropping the show from a 7 to a 5. This is why you don't write OP characters without a way to beat them already planned.

"...leading to a fateful meeting between creators and those they created."
The story was written to have Setsuna meet Altair, not to have the creators fight a god tier villain.

And the writing was bad

Sep 11, 2017 3:58 AM

#181

Caraculiambro

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Jun 2014

245

A sizeable portion of MAL’ers (not all of them) have the emotional intelligence of 9 year olds.
All it takes is for a character to cry or say how much they suffered in the past for the character to be a fan favourite, or at least have all their transgressions forgiven. So never mind that Altair has murdered in cold blood and threatens to annihilate humanity, poor girl.

If we followed MAL’s logic, we should take pity on a certain Austro-german dictator who who died in 1945 because the poor guy suffered a lot when his dad hit him or he couldn’t get into art school, right?

Sep 11, 2017 4:46 AM

#182

Aredros

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May 2009

317

A weeabo is that one who loves a waifu...

So in the show a weeabo makes a waifu, then commits suicide. Then waifu comes to the real world with other waifus, and the last resort to stop her is to make the original weeabo in a waifu version to stop its waifu, but the waifu uses her powers and both become weeabo, so they are weeabo and waifu at the same time.

That aside It was pretty, but too cliche for me to really enjoy it...

Also, I hate the fact that all the characters became side characters just to develop Altair, the show could had been managed in a smarter way (They even exported the psycho!), Blitz relationship with Altair was never touched again after his betrayal (that looked so important and PUF was gone), and even if we know that Altair is not 100% a villain, its really cringy to see her all pink and tender when the last chapter she slaughtered the knight in a very gruesome way and made the partners kill each other with a smile on her face...

Mod Edit: Merged duplicated posts; please use the edit button.

NexuNov 20, 2017 3:57 PM

Sep 11, 2017 5:13 AM

#183

_Walter_White_

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Jun 2016

5

Pipe said:

pranshjeet2694 said:
Who the hell is main character in this anime .... I thought it was selesia was main but now it seems altiar is.... I mean what the hell is it

That's the narrative problem. For me is Souta, and Altair, secondary Meteora, Magane (without these two you can't explain why Sota's idea worked). The other characters filled the story with some minor details and progressions but are irrelevant to the main story. In other words, were disposable.

But still i think the story would have been more interesting if selestia weren't dead... I mean from episode 1 she didn't seem like disposable... i would say this anime is not that good... a hype was created in between but they ruined it

Sep 11, 2017 1:25 PM

#184

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Jul 2014

657

Caraculiambro said:
A sizeable portion of MAL’ers (not all of them) have the emotional intelligence of 9 year olds.
All it takes is for a character to cry or say how much they suffered in the past for the character to be a fan favourite, or at least have all their transgressions forgiven. So never mind that Altair has murdered in cold blood and threatens to annihilate humanity, poor girl.

If we followed MAL’s logic, we should take pity on a certain Austro-german dictator who who died in 1945 because the poor guy suffered a lot when his dad hit him or he couldn’t get into art school, right?

Reducio ad Hitlerium is not a valid argument. Nor, for that matter, is an ad hominem upon the entire community as opposed to an intelligent discussion as to why you think that the episode did poorly.

I've already made my opinion on the subject of this episode known--good, but with flaws--but I don't see the point in saying something like what you just said.

All you're really doing is stomping your feet and crying "stop liking what I don't like."

Sep 11, 2017 3:23 PM

#185

Always-Hungry

Offline

Apr 2013

2286

Them Bankai's weren't strong enough to defeat Altair so the only resort is psychological warfare.

Sep 11, 2017 6:01 PM

#186

Offline

Nov 2012

195

Caraculiambro said:
A sizeable portion of MAL’ers (not all of them) have the emotional intelligence of 9 year olds.
All it takes is for a character to cry or say how much they suffered in the past for the character to be a fan favourite, or at least have all their transgressions forgiven. So never mind that Altair has murdered in cold blood and threatens to annihilate humanity, poor girl.

If we followed MAL’s logic, we should take pity on a certain Austro-german dictator who who died in 1945 because the poor guy suffered a lot when his dad hit him or he couldn’t get into art school, right?

I strongly disagree because of a few reasons.

First: Altair hardly killed anyone, just a few people so don't compare her to Hitler who is responsible for death of millions.
Second: Mamika was the one who was the most destructive (outside of stories), for sure normal citizens have died because of her actions in ep2.
Third: Creations can be brought back to life in the respective stories when they gain enough audience acceptance.
Fourth: In my opinion, Altair had better reasons than Hitler to hate the whole World. Hating the Jews was simply irrational, it didn't solve anything, just created new problems. It was more of Setsuna's fault or her Internet haters instead of Altair's. They started, not she.
Fifth: Altair didn't kill anyone who hadn't attacked her first. In WW2, Germans attacked Poland first and not the other way around, same with France and other countries.

So argumentum ad hitlerum is plain stupid, Caraculiambro.

And she became God, you can't make her pay for her sins. It's more like she decides who is a sinner in her New World.

CoxphireSep 11, 2017 6:10 PM

Sep 11, 2017 6:15 PM

#187

xenovibe

Offline

Nov 2009

455

What a fucking shitshow. To think that the creator of Black Lagoon would go from an ok but still decently enjoyable and kick ass gunslinging modern pirate action series to this insufferably dull and pretentious turd (OMG look at how META WE ARE, durrrrrrrrr). And what's worse than the actual show itself are the people that preach how it's a masterful subversion of different anime genres as well as the medium itself...

What? Are we even watching the same anime?

Sep 11, 2017 8:05 PM

#188

KuroNeko030

Offline

Jul 2015

1910

Hmmm, freaking BEAUTIFUL, boy was that one hell of an episode. I feel GOOD inside. And with that, we only have 1 episode left. Its time to finally wrap everything up and bring this anime to it's conclusion.

A Wild and Small Otaku has Appeared!

Sep 11, 2017 9:33 PM

#189

AoiHonoo

Offline

Jul 2015

66

Mozek said:

Fifth: Altair didn't kill anyone who hadn't attacked her first.

That's simply not true. She wasn't peaceful when she first invaded Celesia's story, and then later attacked her and Souta outside his own house. She's the instigator for everything that's happened.

Sep 11, 2017 10:23 PM

#190

Offline

Nov 2012

195

AoiHonoo said:

Mozek said:

Fifth: Altair didn't kill anyone who hadn't attacked her first.

That's simply not true. She wasn't peaceful when she first invaded Celesia's story, and then later attacked her and Souta outside his own house. She's the instigator for everything that's happened.

I had clearly specified "killed" and we don't really know who attacked first in Celesia's story. My bet is on the knight, same with Yuuya for example. As for the house attack, that was practically her playing with them, she could be much more aggressive. Only became more combative when Celesia attacked her again (yes I know, she was an obstacle in the middle of the street).
The point is, she was far less truculent than she could be. If she wanted, later may have started attacking innocent people just for fun. She didn't. Unlike some villains in other anime. Just think, if she was really evil, why hadn't she murdered Souta's mother? It would be so easy, when she was alone at home.

Sep 11, 2017 11:02 PM

#191

Offline

Jul 2014

657

Mozek said:

AoiHonoo said:

That's simply not true. She wasn't peaceful when she first invaded Celesia's story, and then later attacked her and Souta outside his own house. She's the instigator for everything that's happened.

I had clearly specified "killed" and we don't really know who attacked first in Celesia's story. My bet is on the knight, same with Yuuya for example. As for the house attack, that was practically her playing with them, she could be much more aggressive. Only became more combative when Celesia attacked her again (yes I know, she was an obstacle in the middle of the street).
The point is, she was far less truculent than she could be. If she wanted, later may have started attacking innocent people just for fun. She didn't. Unlike some villains in other anime. Just think, if she was really evil, why hadn't she murdered Souta's mother? It would be so easy, when she was alone at home.

There is one exception to your argument, which is Mamika. The sequence leading up to Souta entering Selesia's world, including Selesia's distinct confusion, makes it clear that Altair dragged her out of wherever she was, and then tried to convince her through force that following her was a good idea.

The sequence of episode 1 makes it quite clear that Altair tracked Selesia and Souta down, intercepted them, and then attempted to defeat Selesia in order to convince her of the righteousness of her cause.

Sep 11, 2017 11:41 PM

#192

Caraculiambro

Offline

Jun 2014

245

Mozek said:

Caraculiambro said:
A sizeable portion of MAL’ers (not all of them) have the emotional intelligence of 9 year olds.
All it takes is for a character to cry or say how much they suffered in the past for the character to be a fan favourite, or at least have all their transgressions forgiven. So never mind that Altair has murdered in cold blood and threatens to annihilate humanity, poor girl.

If we followed MAL’s logic, we should take pity on a certain Austro-german dictator who who died in 1945 because the poor guy suffered a lot when his dad hit him or he couldn’t get into art school, right?

I strongly disagree because of a few reasons.

First: Altair hardly killed anyone, just a few people so don't compare her to Hitler who is responsible for death of millions.
Second: Mamika was the one who was the most destructive (outside of stories), for sure normal citizens have died because of her actions in ep2.
Third: Creations can be brought back to life in the respective stories when they gain enough audience acceptance.
Fourth: In my opinion, Altair had better reasons than Hitler to hate the whole World. Hating the Jews was simply irrational, it didn't solve anything, just created new problems. It was more of Setsuna's fault or her Internet haters instead of Altair's. They started, not she.
Fifth: Altair didn't kill anyone who hadn't attacked her first. In WW2, Germans attacked Poland first and not the other way around, same with France and other countries.

So argumentum ad hitlerum is plain stupid, Caraculiambro.

And she became God, you can't make her pay for her sins. It's more like she decides who is a sinner in her New World.

Well some other posters have already shot down your argument to a million pieces that she didn't attack anyone first. It's plainly clear that she's been on the offensive since day one.

Secondly, well she didn't kill millions because she was thwarted by her opponents, not because she was not planning to go through with it.

Thirdly, creations being brought back to life through audience acceptance is a moot point here if we're discussing her homicidal attitude. As far as I can tell in the show, it's only creations that can be revived, not "real" people.

Fourthly, my point with the unnamed German dictator is just the most extreme example of what we know on people who commit "evil" acts. A large proportion of them have been victims of abuse, bullying or extreme deprivation that then allow their moral compass to break down, and then commit serious crime. That does not mean that we should not have prisons or that we should feel sorry for all of them. Some yes, not all of them. And Altair doesn't pass the test after all she's done.

I'm sorry that you felt insulted when I called out the attitudeof MAL'ers towards your beloved character. But the point still stands, solid and imperturbable. Altair is not a character that deserves our love and understanding, she's a vehicle of frustration and rage that would have destroyed the world because the world treated her creator badly. And I find it mildly amusing that people don't see that. Probably if she hadn't been a kawaii character with white hair in a big coat, they'd have been harder on her.

Sep 12, 2017 12:09 AM

#193

Offline

Jul 2014

657

Caraculiambro said:

Mozek said:

I strongly disagree because of a few reasons.

First: Altair hardly killed anyone, just a few people so don't compare her to Hitler who is responsible for death of millions.
Second: Mamika was the one who was the most destructive (outside of stories), for sure normal citizens have died because of her actions in ep2.
Third: Creations can be brought back to life in the respective stories when they gain enough audience acceptance.
Fourth: In my opinion, Altair had better reasons than Hitler to hate the whole World. Hating the Jews was simply irrational, it didn't solve anything, just created new problems. It was more of Setsuna's fault or her Internet haters instead of Altair's. They started, not she.
Fifth: Altair didn't kill anyone who hadn't attacked her first. In WW2, Germans attacked Poland first and not the other way around, same with France and other countries.

So argumentum ad hitlerum is plain stupid, Caraculiambro.

And she became God, you can't make her pay for her sins. It's more like she decides who is a sinner in her New World.

Well some other posters have already shot down your argument that she didn't attack anyone first. It's plainly clear that she's been on the offensive since day one.

Secondly, well she didn't kill millions because she was thwarted by he opponents, not because she was not planning to go through with it.

Thirdly, creations being brought back to life through audience acceptance is a moot point here if we're discussing her homicidal attitude.

Fourthly, my point with the unnamed German dictator is just the most extreme example of what we know on people who commit "evil" acts. A large proportion of them have been victims of abuse, bullying or extreme deprivation that then allow their moral compass to break down, and then commit serious crime. That does not mean that we should not have prisons or that we should feel sorry for all of them. Some yes, not all of them.

I'm sorry that you felt insulted when I called out the attitudeof MAL'ers towards your beloved character. But the point still stands, solid and imperturbable. Altair is not a character that deserves our love and understanding, she's a vehicle of frustration and rage that would have destroyed the world because the world treated her creator badly. And I find it mildly amusing that people don't see that. Probably if she hadn't been a kawaii character with white hair in a big coat, they'd have been harder on her.

Yet your argument would have been better without the reducio ad hitlerium comparison.

You could well have pointed out that Altair makes a good villain for her traits and intelligence, but is not, as you point out correctly, a very sympathetic character; that her actions in episode 21 very much clash with how she is portrayed throughout the show, where she lies, manipulates, and generally has no qualms about disposing of allies and enemies in brutal fashions. She's a stage-master, and she glories in both her increasing strength and the attention she receives for it.

What made episode 21 only "okay" for me was two things:

1. Altair's reaction to the fake Setsuna is weak. When Sirius is summoned, Altair very nearly explodes with outrage and offense. Yet her reaction to Souta's creation is relatively muted. I'm surprised that she didn't actually go forward in either attacking Setsuna or the other creations still at the station with her.

2.Altair wasn't forceful enough in defending her ideals, and Setsuna wasn't forceful enough in her discussion with Altair. The idea that Altair was actually disobeying her creator was mentioned, but never capitalized upon, and it should have. A direct link should have been made back to episode 8, with the implication that Altair herself became a source of suffering for whatever was left of Setsuna. A point should have been made that there is a difference between accepting one's creation and tolerating their actions, including the futility of sacrificing six billion in the name of one upon the altar of "justice" for the acts of a few thousand. Instead, Setsuna all but doormated herself for Altair, barely mentioning the point that one must accept the world, even if one cannot forgive or like it. Then she goes on to absolve Altair of any responsibility for actions she caused, and in fact rewards Altair by allowing herself to be saved.

Altair is only "defeated" in the loosest sense of the term, as she is effectively given what she wants.

Sep 12, 2017 1:15 AM

#194

Caraculiambro

Offline

Jun 2014

245

firemagnet said:

Caraculiambro said:

Well some other posters have already shot down your argument that she didn't attack anyone first. It's plainly clear that she's been on the offensive since day one.

Secondly, well she didn't kill millions because she was thwarted by he opponents, not because she was not planning to go through with it.

Thirdly, creations being brought back to life through audience acceptance is a moot point here if we're discussing her homicidal attitude.

Fourthly, my point with the unnamed German dictator is just the most extreme example of what we know on people who commit "evil" acts. A large proportion of them have been victims of abuse, bullying or extreme deprivation that then allow their moral compass to break down, and then commit serious crime. That does not mean that we should not have prisons or that we should feel sorry for all of them. Some yes, not all of them.

I'm sorry that you felt insulted when I called out the attitudeof MAL'ers towards your beloved character. But the point still stands, solid and imperturbable. Altair is not a character that deserves our love and understanding, she's a vehicle of frustration and rage that would have destroyed the world because the world treated her creator badly. And I find it mildly amusing that people don't see that. Probably if she hadn't been a kawaii character with white hair in a big coat, they'd have been harder on her.

Yet your argument would have been better without the reducio ad hitlerium comparison.

You could well have pointed out that Altair makes a good villain for her traits and intelligence, but is not, as you point out correctly, a very sympathetic character; that her actions in episode 21 very much clash with how she is portrayed throughout the show, where she lies, manipulates, and generally has no qualms about disposing of allies and enemies in brutal fashions. She's a stage-master, and she glories in both her increasing strength and the attention she receives for it.

Yeah, you’re right.. Just wanted to maximise the point of previous perceived suffering does not justify retribution on colossal scale (and there’s only a handful of examples of that in real life), but I should have stuck to creations .

Sep 12, 2017 4:23 AM

#195

Ranxomare

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Apr 2016

24924

i hope a great and cool conclusion, but this last chapter was boring...much speak...much feeling...much large...and much boring!!! i understand that was the dramatic episode of this season, but my opinion a little of action or changes in the rythm would have been the best, becasue 20 minutes of the same, was BORING!!!!

Sep 12, 2017 7:34 AM

#196

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Nov 2012

195

Ranxomare said:
i hope a great and cool conclusion, but this last chapter was boring...much speak...much feeling...much large...and much boring!!! i understand that was the dramatic episode of this season, but my opinion a little of action or changes in the rythm would have been the best, becasue 20 minutes of the same, was BORING!!!!

Well. At least for me it wasn't boring, it was instead very moving, tear-jerking and simply beautiful. I guess Re:C isn't for every anime fan.

As for Altair, I am not saying she did nothing wrong, but in my opinion, she also didn't do much wrong. Don't want to go into politics but i.e. Bush Senior and Junior did a lot more evil than Altair and I don't believe in conspiracy theories with 9/11 etc. They are respected and they don't need to atone for their sins. That is the case with a lot of influential people.

You can say that she wanted to destroy Our World but SHE DIDN'T and that is a point of paramount significance.

Just think, how awful it was for Setsuna, that anonymous people on the Internet condemned and hated her, just because she made a design A BIT BASED UPON someone's previous work. And that is not end of story as HER CREATION was then in a straightforward way used by many people without asking for permission or honoring her properly, even though her music video and design were both high quality and it wasn't something a mediocre artists could do. Being only 15, Shimazaki was already better than most artist could ever be. Her dreams and career was suddenly and mercilessly crashed so the resentment, wrath and sadness must have been really dreadful. I can put myself into Setsuna's position: as I couldn't subjugate haters by myself, I would probably also commit suicide. Altair, on the other hand is so capable that she can do a lot, even destroy The World. And take into consideration, it is not the same thing to be abused by your father and be hated for nothing by thousands. Hitler was a worse artist than Altair's creator and also he wasn't hated, was just not accepted to the Academy of Fine Arts in Vienna and suggested he was better suited to architecture. Theoretically he could still be very successful in arts or architecture.

Altair is practically a synthesis of Yuna's creation and her enraged side + abilities people gave her later in animations etc. She may also have something in common with Shirotsumekusa from Eternal Wars Megalosphere (aside from very long hair).

If there is a truly evil person in Re:Creators, it is Magane.

#Altairisnotperfect #Altairisntsobad #Setsunasympathisers

Sep 12, 2017 7:58 AM

#197

Ranxomare

🥊 CHAMPION 🥊

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Apr 2016

24924

@Mozek thanks for your opinion and words, and how you did you just show, we don´t agreed! I am happy because you enjoy with this anime! "The passion of a man, it isn´t of the other one!" ;)
Remenber, one left to end!!!

Sep 12, 2017 10:01 AM

#198

Offline

Nov 2012

195

I just thought about something.
What if in ep22 Magane somehow dies and because of that, everything she has done returns to its original state, meaning Setsuna would suddenly disappear.

That is just an idea there are some notable caveats:
1a) We can't be sure if things really return to their original state when she dies in reality.
1b) Some more serious things may not return to their original state (like the bookstore).
2) Setsuna might be an exception for some reason.
3) Shimazaki is already with Altair in a different universe so Magane's death may not affect her in any way (answer to number 2).
4) The fake gold thingy isn't Magane herself so it may not make a difference if she dies or not (and Souta is the one who used it).
5) Altair would still be alive and so f*****g pissed that she would certainly destroy everything.
6) Military princess may somehow block the reversal and keep her beloved creator.
7) If they killed Altair it wouldn't make any sense and would be veeeery cheap.
8) Anime ending with literally shattered reality would be extremely far-out.
9) A lot of people (including me) would be furious on authors with 7 or 8 being true (note that 8 at least makes more sense).
10) Magane is too clever to be killed easily and there is only 1 episode left for epilog.

Sep 12, 2017 1:43 PM

#199